Hooray Leopard...
Intelligent discourse. Lets talk.
I know I am so wordy that my main points tend to get burried. (sigh) I will try to be more precise.
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Originally Posted by (1) Why do you support the idea of having government involved with education at all? Perhaps more wide: What do you define as legitimate roles for government in total?
(2) You asked about 'the poor (income) children who couldn't afford private schooling, that would they then be put out into the streets to run amuck... don't we already see that happening today?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
1. I don't necessarily support government involvment. I am only defending it because the government is the main source of education at the moment. My point is WHATEVER system is doing the job is actually harmed by constant non-constructive rehtoric. I have no problem with the government getting its nose out of education but I do not think we can do it all at once. I do not think voters are going to buy it right away. So I think it has to be phased out, not abolished. And it needs some support during transition.
2. The poverty culture: Yes it is happening today. I believe if you left it up to many of those parents it would happen to a much greater degree. But my concern really is not that they are out running around. They are in the summer anyway. My concern is their education.
Great job on the viable alternatives Leopard. When they are ready to go in place (politically as well as economically) I am on your side. All I am saying is, demoralizing those who are working in the current system is making things worse.
My points are really just twofold.
Point 1.
I think most critics of PS are seriously underestimating the difficulty of educating the poverty culture. PS is all that is required to deal with the entire mass now.
If/when the government system is gone, there are going to be some very sruprised critics out there. (barring those who will just continue to criticize and naturally have all the answers as to why the new system is also failing).
You are probably right Leopard, there are probably some who don't want to be educated so they won't be but there are millions out there who don't want to be educated but can be motivated. I see it happen a lot. Yes even in the government schools.
I probably cannot convince those of you who just do not believe that there are kids out there without access to adults who can teach them. I cannot help but believe you have been pretty sheltered in your involvement with the hard core poverty culture areas.
For those of you who may post that you, indeed, have that experience tell me who would be the home educator for the preshcooler we had to teach not to drink out of toilets because he had been left alone so opften that that is where he had to get his water? What about the parents that threaten anyone who comes to their home? Who are they going to go out and encourage to come teach their children? I really care about these children and want to see them educated.
You are right... The PS system is doing a pretty crappy job of it but they are doing a job. And they are reaching and teaching many.
Point 2.
Demoralizing the current workers is adding to the problem. I know many of you have said you are criticizing the system. I have much less concern about that than demoralizing the teachers. In spite of Lightbearer's claim that the criticism is "Mild...In some small way..." after which he says PS teachers are less respectable than pimps and drug dealers and that they are dishonest, all anyone has to do is listen to the media and read the paper so see teacher bashing. "They are lazy" (no one who has taught in K-12 can possibly believe that). "They are just there to collect a paycheck" Right, it is such a big one.
"They sit on their butts all summer" Lots of them work summers to make ends meet. "They are not accountable" That one is the one that is the most rediculous. "They cannot get rid of them once tenure is earned" BIG myth, it just requires the same sort of justification that most union contracts require. The union does more to keep a teahcer employed than tenure. (By the way unions tend to be present in private enterprises as well as in government enterprises). The biggest reason it is difficult to fire a teacher now is that there is a HUGE teacher shortage. Do you really wonder why?
As I posted above it is not me personally because I am accountable as a clinnician. Not a teacher. No one seems to bash us. I would probably not be so vehement in my own defence.
I have seen the deterioration of the morale of PS teachers. MANY many of them are actually becomming what people accuse them of being because they are getting the "Why bother" attitude.
Recap for the skimmers....
1. While I am very open to alternatives to government schools, I believe most people are drastically underestimating the poverty culture's effect on alternative school plans. I still want to see those children receive an education.
This population is particulary left out of the home school model since many parents are unwilling/unable to teach their children nor will many of them seek any help from neighbors, volunteers or fellow gang members.
2. Demoralizing the teachers is adding to the problem. Yes alternitives such as privatization are option but it is not there, at least not yet. In the meantime I believe we have to support (or at least not ridicule) the people who are trying to do the job.
Particularyly in the area of private or charter shcools, this same population of teachers is likely to be what is hired by the private/charter shcools to teach the millions released to their care.
If not what carrot is going to be out there to attract new and better teachers?