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**Matt W** · Mar 31, 2005, 07:13 am

Naive?? Really? I must disagree....but then I would, wouldn't I?

I am not proposing we go backwards in time. I am asking you to justify the reversals of several political & social freedoms that have been gained by the peoples of Western Europe and America, often by armed struggle. That, to me, is going backwards socially, and no arguments I have seen merit this.

As for hudud, I am not concerned with the statistics. I am, as above, concerned with going backwards. Corporal punishment (of any variety) is pretty much an abomination in Western culture these days. Again, I see no reason for us to regress to these medieval punishments. I see no reason for people to be hung from cranes & flogged, either, if you want to talk specific cases.

Regarding anti-terror laws - they apply to everyone, or hadn't you noticed? I could point to an Irishman, I could point at a single Father (Fathers For Justice), I could point at a member of Greenpeace - any of these people could be detained under the laws. Had you also noticed the consistent destruction of their application by the judiciary? On both sides of the Atlantic? Secular government allows this. It allows flexibility, it allows independence. Theocracies don't - what is written, is written.

A question for yourself - how much say did 'non-Islamic' citizens have in the government of the Caliphate? Was it required for the Caliph to be a Muslim? If so...then we're back on religious discrimination, which is again, an abomination in the eyes of the West.

Mar 31, 2005, 07:13 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,800	Naive?? Really? I must disagree....but then I would, wouldn't I? I am not proposing we go backwards in time. I am asking you to justify the reversals of several political & social freedoms that have been gained by the peoples of Western Europe and America, often by armed struggle. That, to me, is going backwards socially, and no arguments I have seen merit this. As for hudud, I am not concerned with the statistics. I am, as above, concerned with going backwards. Corporal punishment (of any variety) is pretty much an abomination in Western culture these days. Again, I see no reason for us to regress to these medieval punishments. I see no reason for people to be hung from cranes & flogged, either, if you want to talk specific cases. Regarding anti-terror laws - they apply to everyone, or hadn't you noticed? I could point to an Irishman, I could point at a single Father (Fathers For Justice), I could point at a member of Greenpeace - any of these people could be detained under the laws. Had you also noticed the consistent destruction of their application by the judiciary? On both sides of the Atlantic? Secular government allows this. It allows flexibility, it allows independence. Theocracies don't - what is written, is written. A question for yourself - how much say did 'non-Islamic' citizens have in the government of the Caliphate? Was it required for the Caliph to be a Muslim? If so...then we're back on religious discrimination, which is again, an abomination in the eyes of the West. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.