[dotcoma]

Quote by: bishop heh... a zygote is a cluster of human cells that can grow into a human being. i don't see this cluster of cells as being a human being at all.

So are you then petty enough to say something like you do not have a birthday cake if the candles are there, but they are not on the cake yet? COME ON lol..you know what it is.

and, you are not going to remove utilitarian concerns from women who become pregnant - you realize that when you talk about underground abortions. that underscores my point about how the anti-choice crowd, in general, views mothers as the "bad guy" and isn't willing to support them (or their babies) once they give birth.

No, actually if you read my first post I admitted I was pro-choice at one point. Are you denying that there are/were large amounts of underground abortions when it was not legal? Also, why are you ignoring the issue of adoption?

an individual has dominion over their own body. earlier you suggested that she has an obligation to be responsible and must birth the child, even if she's unprepared for the reality of motherhood. is this the sort of obligation that must be required by law, or is this a moral obligation that should be left up to the individual? i choose the latter.

The law protects life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. The mother and the child can both do this. If the mother does not want the child she has other options that do not deny life, liberty and the persuit of happiness for another human being.

also, i'm not much of a fan of badnarik, but on this issue he made a good point. if the state has the right to force pregnancy (i.e. by removing the choice to have an abortion), then it would also have the right to force abortion (like china). why? because by forcing pregnancy, you've affectively said that the state has jurisdiction over a woman's own body. you want that tattoo? nope, can't have that either, the state said so.

Actually, that is a terrible point. It is a slippery slope. The government has control over your body when you steal/kill someone too. They can force your body to remain in a jail cell, or die in an electric chair right?

Quote by: Gorgo Assuming that were true, what exactly is the problem with that?

Gorgo, you have just provided me with enough of your perspective to indicate that you are not really someone worth debating with. If you do not see anything wrong with casually just aborting babies then we are not going to go anywhere in discussing the issue. Very few people hold that stance on abortion even in the pro-choice realm.

I see no evidence of that. I see people being jailed and executed because they are poor. Sometimes these people actually committed crimes, sometimes they didn't. There is no evidence that this killing makes life better for anyone. There is evidence that abortion can improve the life of those that have already been born.

lol...I can see why some people find the level of discussion a little too tin-foil to handle at times. People are not jailed because they are poor Gorgo. They are jailed because they are suspected of a crime, and then a judge and jury decides if it was correct to do so. Do you have a better system?

Also, why do you depend on the government to make a woman's life better? I mean if you are giving her a way to just relieve herself of the consequences of sex, then aren't you really just taking away any responsibility that comes with sex?